I appreciate your comment. Yes, humans existed before agriculture in extremely small numbers as hunter-gatherers. As I recall, the estimates were very low, population in the tens of thousands. Agriculture did indeed create the circumstances for civilization, as well as the need for governance and standing armies. Overshoot has been in part fueled by unsustainable agricultural practices from fertilizer derived from fossil fuels and a soil crisis from poor practices. I would still stand by the idea we rose with agriculture, without it, we would have just been another minor species on the planet — but I do get your point. You are correct, we can't know for certain if we will become extinct, but we're flirting with the possibility. What's more worrisome to me is the pain and violence our contraction guarantees. Thanks, Patrick.
A great analogy: Biden is.."a standard Republican, but now most Republicans are far-right Christian fascists." I appreciate you and your help to untangle this systemic state of affairs with lessons we have not learned.
Thank you, Pam. It seems what we learn is lost within a few generations at best. The fascism we're seeing here currently is not confined to the US. It's extremely concerning with the growing economic problems being caused by climate change.
"Humans rose with agriculture, and we will fall with it, too."
I hope this doesn't come across as pedantic, as I think it's really important to make this distinction. "Humans" did not "rise" with agriculture (except in population numbers). Civilization did. Humans (homo sapiens) did just fine for some 300k years before civilization, and our ancestor hominids did just fine for some 3 million. We did this without destroying our habitat either. Homo sapiens prior to civilization were exactly as evolved as you and me, but they didn't have civilization.
Now, you're saying "we will fall with [agriculture], too." Again, I say no. Civilization will fall, along with our population overshoot. Hopefully, we won't have done so much damage that we wipe ourselves out as well, but the only guaranteed end here is civilization's. Humans will decrease catastrophically in population, yes, but isn't guaranteed that we'll go extinct. We just have to give up on this failed civilization experiment.
Again, hope this doesn't sound like I'm nitpicking. Your phrasing just really struck me sideways. Humanity does not equal civilization, and civilization is what is ending when our agriculture lifestyle ends.
We are facing a dark future! Perhaps the wakeup call for some will be when their cellphones, and our entire electronic infrastructure, stop working. Re-electing Biden and the Democrats will not save America or the world. It may briefly hold the political disaster at bay for a year or three. Only making serious progress against the poisoning of Earth will help. That, and maybe firing Elon and others like him into space.
Yes, it's dark indeed and on our doorstep. I have bashed Biden repeatedly, but at some point will have to come out with some kind of reluctant support for that year or three you mention. It's pretty unbelievable how corrupt and dysfunctional our political system has become, until you start looking at history and what preceded our lifetimes. Standard human behavior, which the Earth can no longer bear.
Excellent article, as usual, Geoff! I noticed one small typo that you may want to correct -- that famous report from 1972 was called The Limits TO Growth, not The Limits OF Growth.
IDF and Bibi are committing crimes against humanity, there's no doubt. Palestinians have been living under an Apartheid system. Hamas mandate is the eradication of Israel. The creation of Israel by western powers after WWII ignored the predictable tension and violence that has followed for over 75 years now. Talking about a two-state solution is a sad farce. Ultimately, the colonial power's decision to create Israel is to blame. Although the Jews lineage to Israel is clearly established, using a claim 3000 years old to annex the land of contemporary society with that long, bloody history was a poor decision. It's difficult not to suspect the US, UK and France simply wanted a stronghold in the Middle East and its oil. The circumstances after the war provided the opportunity.
I appreciate your comment. Yes, humans existed before agriculture in extremely small numbers as hunter-gatherers. As I recall, the estimates were very low, population in the tens of thousands. Agriculture did indeed create the circumstances for civilization, as well as the need for governance and standing armies. Overshoot has been in part fueled by unsustainable agricultural practices from fertilizer derived from fossil fuels and a soil crisis from poor practices. I would still stand by the idea we rose with agriculture, without it, we would have just been another minor species on the planet — but I do get your point. You are correct, we can't know for certain if we will become extinct, but we're flirting with the possibility. What's more worrisome to me is the pain and violence our contraction guarantees. Thanks, Patrick.
A great analogy: Biden is.."a standard Republican, but now most Republicans are far-right Christian fascists." I appreciate you and your help to untangle this systemic state of affairs with lessons we have not learned.
Thank you for your thoughts, agreeably insane.
Thank you, Pam. It seems what we learn is lost within a few generations at best. The fascism we're seeing here currently is not confined to the US. It's extremely concerning with the growing economic problems being caused by climate change.
"Humans rose with agriculture, and we will fall with it, too."
I hope this doesn't come across as pedantic, as I think it's really important to make this distinction. "Humans" did not "rise" with agriculture (except in population numbers). Civilization did. Humans (homo sapiens) did just fine for some 300k years before civilization, and our ancestor hominids did just fine for some 3 million. We did this without destroying our habitat either. Homo sapiens prior to civilization were exactly as evolved as you and me, but they didn't have civilization.
Now, you're saying "we will fall with [agriculture], too." Again, I say no. Civilization will fall, along with our population overshoot. Hopefully, we won't have done so much damage that we wipe ourselves out as well, but the only guaranteed end here is civilization's. Humans will decrease catastrophically in population, yes, but isn't guaranteed that we'll go extinct. We just have to give up on this failed civilization experiment.
Again, hope this doesn't sound like I'm nitpicking. Your phrasing just really struck me sideways. Humanity does not equal civilization, and civilization is what is ending when our agriculture lifestyle ends.
We are facing a dark future! Perhaps the wakeup call for some will be when their cellphones, and our entire electronic infrastructure, stop working. Re-electing Biden and the Democrats will not save America or the world. It may briefly hold the political disaster at bay for a year or three. Only making serious progress against the poisoning of Earth will help. That, and maybe firing Elon and others like him into space.
Yes, it's dark indeed and on our doorstep. I have bashed Biden repeatedly, but at some point will have to come out with some kind of reluctant support for that year or three you mention. It's pretty unbelievable how corrupt and dysfunctional our political system has become, until you start looking at history and what preceded our lifetimes. Standard human behavior, which the Earth can no longer bear.
Excellent article, as usual, Geoff! I noticed one small typo that you may want to correct -- that famous report from 1972 was called The Limits TO Growth, not The Limits OF Growth.
Thanks, and thanks for the alert on the typo. Self-proofing is challenging!
Hamas being the terrorist ?
IDF and Bibi are the true terrorists by fencing in the Palestinians and mowing the lawn anytime they wanted ..
But other than that, I agree with you great article. Your brain is too big for your body and I will see you soon.
Less is more
Free Palestine
IDF and Bibi are committing crimes against humanity, there's no doubt. Palestinians have been living under an Apartheid system. Hamas mandate is the eradication of Israel. The creation of Israel by western powers after WWII ignored the predictable tension and violence that has followed for over 75 years now. Talking about a two-state solution is a sad farce. Ultimately, the colonial power's decision to create Israel is to blame. Although the Jews lineage to Israel is clearly established, using a claim 3000 years old to annex the land of contemporary society with that long, bloody history was a poor decision. It's difficult not to suspect the US, UK and France simply wanted a stronghold in the Middle East and its oil. The circumstances after the war provided the opportunity.